Heroes of Doxy.me: A Mother’s Divided Heart
Nataliia Bondar was one of many Ukrainian mothers faced with a horrifying question: what must I do to protect my family? Her husband and eldest son forced by law to remain in Ukraine, she must decide what to do with her mother and youngest children.
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Transcript Nataliia Bondar
Mary:
I would love to know what life felt like for you the month prior to the invasion, where were you, what were you thinking and feeling
Nataliia:
One month before invasion, you know, actually preparation for the invasion started for me at the beginning of December, because I was in charge of this contingency plan they had for Ukraine.
Mary:
Oh, I didn’t know that,
Nataliia:
Like I was reading a lot. I was looking for information everywhere. I was talking to people who did the same during the first stage of Russian invasion in 2014. And as I had certain experience and they were trying to understand what might happen, what will be the challenges, how we can manage this, what can be done. But, and actually right before, one week before the invasion, we have done the first stage, we have completed the first stage for response plan and I completed it. Like you did something with this first stage. And I decided that maybe it’s a good time for me to have a vacation. So I took one week of vacations for, and I was on vacations for war started.
Mary:
Oh, you, where were you
Nataliia:
In Kiev? I was just, I wanted to have some time for me to meet my friends because I haven’t seen them for a long time. I was very busy with all that stuff, the end of the year and, and preparation of this plan and everything. And I had some meetings. I had some, like, I wanted to stay in here not to go anywhere. And, and just the day before the war, I felt like kind of very strong anxiety. I don’t know why, but I was so nervous. And, and when my husband came home, I told him that maybe I don’t know why, but it’s very, I’m very nervous. And he said that, okay, maybe we can wake up kids and goto our country house for a couple of days because I’m on vacation. So maybe it will make me feel better. So we took somethings with us and moved to our country house.
Nataliia:
And we came there at 2:00 AM and in a couple of hours woke up by the explosions, not far from our country house because a mill airport is not far from there, it’s around 15 kilometers. And it was like the, the glasses were trembling. Andjust, and trying to understand what’s going on to find any information in the internet. And it was almost impossible because at that time, nobody could say what what’s going on. They understood that something is happening in Cuba. We heard the sound of explosion from the west and from the east of our house and fever and not, we didn’t know what to do with, we really were shell shocked.
Mary:
And then what happened? What
Nataliia:
Did to be, be understood that cave was bombed the same as the, the stomach airport, the same as the next CT on our way to us
Nataliia:
And the they’re hesitating because it’s, if you go on the road, it’s very hard to be safe. You know, if, if there is a bombing, then step right, step left. You, you just can’t do this. You are on the open space, right. And, and you were waiting for the explosions to stop. No, we decided to go to my mom’s house and community and ski and we just collected whatever we had. We took some closes for kids from the country house. It’s not like, you know, we are doing some gardening there. It’snot like country. Actually. They just, we were looking for something warm for kids and, and the left.
Mary:
How did, how did you get there?
Nataliia:
We had the car. So we, we were lucky enough because people couldn’t get out of Kiev for a long, for a lot of hours, because it was like a traffic jam, a B exit of, out of Kiev. And we were happy because we, we were further west, youknow, 20 kilometers further from this place. And that’s why you were happy to get to the main road directly. And, but it took us 10 hours almost to, to get just 280 kilometers to my mom’s house.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Mm. Yes.
Mary:
Because of the traffic.
Nataliia:
Yes. A lot of cars.
Mary:
Did you have enough? Did you have enough petrol for your car?
Nataliia:
Yes, we, it was possible to get fuel. It was given by small portions, like 15 liters, 10 liters, but it was possible to get it. Wow. And the price is still very normal. There were very long queues to the petrol stations, but anyway, we were lucky to just, we were, we were prepared. We had the full tank because as, as I was preparing this, so this recommendations I knew, and we had the car was the full tank of patrol. So for the first day of travel, you are prepared. But it was like, we came to my mom’s house and we spent the night and it wasn’t. And that was the second sleepless night. Because first night we were just sleeping couple of hours. And this night, again, it wasn’t possible to sleep because of the shock. And I didn’t, I don’t know the English word for this, but we are traveling. It’s fun. You can, you can stop.
Mary:
Yeah. If you were not, not the earth, but you were trending
Nataliia:
Me. Yes. Me, my husband, there were like attacks. Now there’s panic attacks. I don’t know how to call it that time. Andthe, you go to sleep and in an hour you get up trembling. And again, you’re trying to get asleep way. And in the morning when we learn that, okay, you plan to go to our hub because we organized everything. And it was possible to go there because every school was prepared. Lisa was waiting for any team members with families. We knew about everything. We had the list of people, telegram channel. We were chatting. We were trying to support the child, but I understood that that, well, they leave is also has a air alarm the same morning and the vineyard. So another city was bombed. So we were not, didn’t know what to do. And our, friends, from Poland proposed us to, to go to their house and to accommodate us in Poland.
Nataliia:
So you are hesitating for, for some time, but as my daughter was having this, I don’t know, a nervous tick. She was like doing like this because of, she was so frightened that’s and she cannot stop doing this. And it was very hard to see her like, and, and, and we decided that maybe we should go there, but it was a very difficult decision because I have three kids. My oldest kid is 19 and he’s not too to go out of Ukraine. So my husband wasn’t planning to go anywhere. My elder son was also stays in, in community right now. And my mom also, she decided to stay with them. And she said that she’s too old to change anything in her life. She wants to, to be there. And so it was like to split the family, to, to leave the parts of my heart there and to decide that maybe I need to go abroad because of the younger kids.
Nataliia:
And we decided to go to the border, the aunt of the day, we finally came to the border, but there were huge queues of cars. And there wasn’t a that day, there was only one place where it was possible to go on food because my husband planned to take the car back. And I was with my kids to go on food. We knew that there are a lot of cars. So we thought that maybe on food, it will be much easier. And the same day, it wasn’t yet a lot of traffic, a lot of trains or buses going to the borders. So anything there was nothing organized yet. Yeah. And when we came there and we, we understood on the GPS, it was shown that there are still a lot of kilometers to the border, but there is a queue. And some people from the local villages, they said that, oh my God, what’s happening. You want to cross the border even tomorrow because of the, the queue and everything. And we understood that we don’t have enough fuel, but at the same time, you can’t leave the turn, your turn because otherwise other Cabo immediately step on your place. And if you leave you to get to the, to the front of the queue, and some people were going along, the skew was their personal belongings just to, to the border. But it was more than 10 kilometers to the, the, it was night. And it was very hold hold.
Nataliia:
And we didn’t know what to do. We stayed there for a couple of hours. We understood that we made only 10 meters, maybe, or 15 meters during this time. Wow. And a friend from Poland, he told that the, there was a decision from Polish and Ukrainian government to open some more places where it’s possible to go and food and three decided to go there. It was not far from there, but I was so nervous, but I remember that the name of displace. So I don’t know where I crossed the border. There was also very, very long queue and who were moving in full darkness. It was, it wasn’t in the village. It was in the field. And we understood that we are to stay there for the nights. There were some people working along the cars and saying, please switch of the engines, please switch of the lights, because they were afraid that they are, they’re a good goal for aim for, for the planes.
Nataliia:
We’ve heard helicopters. We explain our kids that they have to be like, if something happens, they are to get out of the car and to find the hole and to, to hide there. And he trains him. You’ve had to train them because you know, the cars on the road is something that is a good goal. And we understood that this nights will be also without sleep because my husband couldn’t sleep. And I was trying to sleep at least a bit. And it was almost impossible because we were changing all the time. We were trying to switch on the engine and switch off, switch, arms, switch off. And you are making like very, very small steps toward the border. And it’s six o’clock. We got up and we understood that maybe the, we are to go on foot. And
Mary:
In the meantime, how were your, how were your younger children handling this
Nataliia:
Dudley? It was very hard to stay for, for two days in the car. And they were like, we had no normal food. The water was almost the bottle was water was almost empty. Like something like this for, for, for people. It’s nothing. And, and do you understand that maybe not all the belongings you’re taking you need, so to eat, just decided to take some what we can with us and my husband, finally, my husband managed to, to stop the bus that was going to the border. And they agreed to take me and my daughter and, and our belongings there to the border. And my husband and my son decided to go and food. Sowe were in this bus, it was crowded. A lot of people, a lot of women was kids of all ages and very small kids. Some of them had a fever. They were just the diverse Sikh. It was very hot. And my daughter was like, it was all this stops. The bus was moving very slowly and she was laying on the floor. She couldn’t breathe. It was very hard for her. I don’t know. Maybe it’s because of the, she was nervous or because she was just sick because of this like
Mary:
Movement,
Nataliia:
The movement. Yes. I don’t know. But she was laying on the floor all the way to the water. And there, we understood that we were very, very far from, from the body, actually left the cover very far from the border, 12 kilometers, 17 kilometers. I don’t know, but, but very, very far. So when we, when we got to the border, there were already a lot of people, they were just not let to cross because the bodyguards say that we need to, they need to collect some, a group of people and then they will let us go. And it was early morning. We were standing. It was a cold, very cold, the temperature below zero.
Nataliia:
And you waited for a couple of hours. My, my daughter wanted to drink to eat. We had almost nothing to eat. We had some, the water was finished. And so I came to the bodyguards and I asked them if they have any water. And actually they were very kind. They shared their own bottle was a bit of water. So they shared it was awesome. And I was able to get to give it to my daughter, but I thought that it will be easy to, to cross the border. And we were waiting just for, for my husband to, to bring the, the son to me. But in fact, we stayed there for five more hours, not just waiting for the Bamba because we were not let to cross the border. And the first, there was one group of people who crossed. Then there was another group of people who crossed because the, the board, what the guards decided to let only people who has the kids of one year and till three years, you know, and my, my kids are older.
Nataliia:
So, and we were waiting for so long time and people were coming and coming and coming. And I understood that that will be out in front rows, but people from other sides are coming and standing in front of us. So there is no chance we will cross very quickly. And people got nervous. We were, everyone was crying that it’s a unhuman because there is no toilets. There is no water. There is, we are standing for so long time. They’re in this crowd. And I started to cry. And when I told my daughter that if there is a chance, you have to run because they won’t stop. You you’re small. They won’t stop you. And maybe this way you will start to cry, mom. And then we will, we’ll join you because you have already crossed maybe this way, we will be able to cross this. And in fact, then a lot of people started, you know, like started to break the chain of what gods and the gods. And we ran, we just ran to the border. Wow,
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
But it was like this point on the border. It wasn’t for a crossing on food. And that’s why it was very long from this firstpost to the border itself. So it was like a one kilometer and a half or something. So I, I wasn’t able to resolve theselongings. I wasn’t able to run the lot. And I said to kids that you have to run and I will, I will follow. I will definitely have a four. We will cross because we are all already on the territory of the border. And it means that we will cross
Mary:
At this point, you have your daughter with you and your middle son.
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
How old are both of them?
Nataliia:
Dante. Stan and son is 16.
Mary:
And so where was your husband at this point?
Nataliia:
He wasn’t planning to cross the border and to go with us, but it wasn’t possible anyway, but he wanted to, to help somehow to, to the, to the country. And he wasn’t planning to escape. So he just let us, she brought us to the border and returned to our, to my mom’s city. And now he’s there. He’s helping us because he’s almost 40, 50, he’s almost 50. Andjust, he has no previous military experience. He tried to get to the territory defense, but they said that at the moment they need people who has military experience. So he was volunteering case giving blood,
Mary:
Oh my goodness.
Nataliia:
Today, his care, he wasn’t just giving blood that, that is what, what he can do.
Mary:
Wow. So right now, are you in Poland?
Nataliia:
Yes, I am in Poland. In small village. In central Poland.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
And how did you find the place where you are connections?
Nataliia:
Oh, it’s a hard question for me because I used to be like, I’m a resource for others and the person who is responsible for many things. And I used to be responsible not only for my life, but for, for other people around me, the moment I find myself in a completely different situation where I’m just, this is everybody’s helping, you know, everybody is helping and actually they helped me in everything and I just, I have to accept
Nataliia:
Help. And that is very uncommon for me. I’m living in a small, In a small village. There is no public transport at all. My kids have at the moment they go to school.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Yes. We decided that it would be better than to stay at home and to watch this videos because they can’t get to forget what happened in Ukraine. They have nightmares, they have problems with their nervous system. And so we decided that maybe it would be better for them to go to school. And my friends here, they helped me very much. They just like angels for us, but I didn’t manage to get an apartment. I signed an agreement already, and I saw that on Monday, this Monday, we’ll be able to move to the apartment, close to a small studio, not nothing fancy, very small studio, close to the school, but I didn’t manage to do this because suddenly the day when I was to move, the owner told me that the apartment is not vacant. It’s not ready for us though. I paid two months of deposit and still, I’m just, I have to be with my friends. So to stay in their house at the moment, because there is no other choice for us.
Mary:
Will you get your money back?
Nataliia:
Not yet. I’m waiting. Maybe he will have a, another apartment in the meat of April. So still I didn’t get anything. So I’m, I’m still waiting because it’s, it’s a big problem in Poland now to find a place for, to leave. And the prices are huge. And in this area where I am now, just there are no any apartments for lease. There is nothing just empty and the market is empty. Absolutely. There are also many, many Ukrainian families. And in, in the school we have are the Ukrainian kids as well.
Mary:
Natalia, have you been able to sleep?
Nataliia:
I’m taking medicines And taking medicines. I had something from Ukraine and I continue to take them because otherwise it’s not possible for me to sleep. And you know, in, in Poland, they are, they feel that the war is very close, so close for them as well. And all of them, they watch the TV and the Ukrainians and the voice all the time on TV. It’s all the time in the conversations of people. It’s, It’s everywhere.
Mary:
Yeah. There’s no refuge from it. How are your children?
Nataliia:
I wanted to say fine, but they are fine as for the situation, maybe.
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
They need to find their way New class, you know, they need to,
Mary:
And a new language, new language,
Nataliia:
New language, new, new school, new people to understand that they lost well. They, they, they was their friends because their friends are scattered. They are in different cities. They are somewhere. It’s not like you can call someone and help them for a walk, you know, and to meet, to celebrate those different example, to have pizza somewhere. And nothing of that kind, it’s a different reality. They understand that They have to adopt somehow, but they feel suspended as well as theVPO. You know, at the moment, I’m trying to make inventory of what, what still is stable in my life. And actual a job is the only thing that is stable. I don’t have full family now because they, they are split, but family is something very important for me. And it was always very important for me. Life is, it won’t be the same anyway. Yeah.
Nataliia:
Yeah. Changing. I feel that we have changed a lot. I’m happy that Ukraine is it’s consolidated. It’s like a nation and everybody sees it. And everybody understands that. It’s not like it was described before. You know, and I sold this processes before and, and I’m happy to see this, but at the same time, I understand that if we turn back, it will be different Kiev. If it will be different places and the places they want recognize, and today you I’m just prepared that something might happen to what you, you have left because of in QI, for example, we still have my husband’s family, his mother and father and brother. And when something is born to you immediately, you just try to understand if it’s somehow, is it about your family or about your friends or how it’s If anyone affected. And if you know that the house of my relative, it was bombed, it was destroyed. And, but in the morning we called them, they asked if they maybe they will need a place to leave. Sothey, they can use our apartment in key, have to, to, to live there. But we were lucky to, and you are happy to know that she managed to, to live give before.
Mary:
Oh, good.
Nataliia:
Yes. And that is like, you know that, And it’s very, very hard each time. It’s very hard to see your friends to see your teammates was this, you know, backgrounds, no someone is sitting in the machine nice background and it’s looked like very professional and so on and so on. But you know that there is a air attack and the person is actually not working from the basement or working from the, I don’t know, bathroom because it’s safe to stay there. And everybody’s is doing Incredible efforts to continue working, to continue being helpful, to continue being useful and to work and, And it’s, and to support the children. We have the team that is supporting each other very, very much, very much indeed.
Mary:
How easy is it for you to communicate with your son and husband?
Nataliia:
It’s very hard because sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes it’s difficult because the live it’s our mood, our state is a rollercoaster each day and several times per day. And you don’t know in which modes you will find your GRS, right? We’ll be they after not sleepless night or will they be after I’m good. After they read something good from the news, you never know. And when you talk to them, it’s like, it’s, it’s good to understand that every senior is okay. But sometimes we, we prefer to write, we want to see each other, but sometimes it’s okay to write just to text messages and to see if it’s a good time to talk.
Mary:
Yeah. What is your son doing?
Nataliia:
He is a student about Toronto studies at the university. At the moment he was studying at the key of national university. But the same time he was working as, as a QA and he continues to work as a Cray. Now,
Mary:
What, what is that?
Nataliia:
It’s a quality assurance, assurance engineer. He’s working for it company, not, not for our company. It’s a different company.
Mary:
So he is not volunteering in the military at this point.
Nataliia:
No, he’s not.
Nataliia:
He he’s making, you know, he’s, that is volunteering. If you call it volunteering is to, to the find this a telegram channels where the wrong information is shared, for example, and try to stop them. They’re sending the messages in social media, you know, or try to ban someone from posting propaganda. That is, that is the kind of things he is doing. And also he’s helping his friends who are in key of whiskey in cave. And in other parts of Ukraine, his <inaudible> is a safe place. So he’s buying things and helping them was his sense, like what, what is needed them.
Mary:
So he’s a little bit like you he’s, he’s doing the kind of administrative helpful things that you have done for doxy.me. It sounds like
Nataliia:
Not exactly, but he’s, that is, he’s more in it. You know, he’s more like, this is the way how he finds himself more useful, you know?
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
Yeah. My, my mom was making this rugs. I don’t know how to call it. It’s to cover the equipment, you know, not to be seen from the air. That is the, the make small pieces, small li like laces. And they put them on the, on the net and, and then the send it to, to the army. So she was going there and helping and was preparing food for refugees. They just saw that. But everybody, everybody is helping now. And, and that, that is normal. That is not something, you know, just it’s, it’s not something fantastic. And credible it’s, everybody is doing this now. Absolutely. Everybody.
Mary:
Yeah. So Natalia, you were in charge of preparing doxy.me for a war, right?
Transcript Nataliia Bondar
Mary:
I would love to know what life felt like for you the month prior to the invasion, where were you, what were you thinking and feeling
Nataliia:
One month before invasion, you know, actually preparation for the invasion started for me at the beginning of December, because I was in charge of this contingency plan they had for Ukraine.
Mary:
Oh, I didn’t know that,
Nataliia:
Like I was reading a lot. I was looking for information everywhere. I was talking to people who did the same during the first stage of Russian invasion in 2014. And as I had certain experience and they were trying to understand what might happen, what will be the challenges, how we can manage this, what can be done. But, and actually right before, one week before the invasion, we have done the first stage, we have completed the first stage for response plan and I completed it. Like you did something with this first stage. And I decided that maybe it’s a good time for me to have a vacation. So I took one week of vacations for, and I was on vacations for war started.
Mary:
Oh, you, where were you
Nataliia:
In Kiev? I was just, I wanted to have some time for me to meet my friends because I haven’t seen them for a long time. I was very busy with all that stuff, the end of the year and, and preparation of this plan and everything. And I had some meetings. I had some, like, I wanted to stay in here not to go anywhere. And, and just the day before the war, I felt like kind of very strong anxiety. I don’t know why, but I was so nervous. And, and when my husband came home, I told him that maybe I don’t know why, but it’s very, I’m very nervous. And he said that, okay, maybe we can wake up kids and goto our country house for a couple of days because I’m on vacation. So maybe it will make me feel better. So we took somethings with us and moved to our country house.
Nataliia:
And we came there at 2:00 AM and in a couple of hours woke up by the explosions, not far from our country house because a mill airport is not far from there, it’s around 15 kilometers. And it was like the, the glasses were trembling. Andjust, and trying to understand what’s going on to find any information in the internet. And it was almost impossible because at that time, nobody could say what what’s going on. They understood that something is happening in Cuba. We heard the sound of explosion from the west and from the east of our house and fever and not, we didn’t know what to do with, we really were shell shocked.
Mary:
And then what happened? What
Nataliia:
Did to be, be understood that cave was bombed the same as the, the stomach airport, the same as the next CT on our way to us
Nataliia:
And the they’re hesitating because it’s, if you go on the road, it’s very hard to be safe. You know, if, if there is a bombing, then step right, step left. You, you just can’t do this. You are on the open space, right. And, and you were waiting for the explosions to stop. No, we decided to go to my mom’s house and community and ski and we just collected whatever we had. We took some closes for kids from the country house. It’s not like, you know, we are doing some gardening there. It’snot like country. Actually. They just, we were looking for something warm for kids and, and the left.
Mary:
How did, how did you get there?
Nataliia:
We had the car. So we, we were lucky enough because people couldn’t get out of Kiev for a long, for a lot of hours, because it was like a traffic jam, a B exit of, out of Kiev. And we were happy because we, we were further west, youknow, 20 kilometers further from this place. And that’s why you were happy to get to the main road directly. And, but it took us 10 hours almost to, to get just 280 kilometers to my mom’s house.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Mm. Yes.
Mary:
Because of the traffic.
Nataliia:
Yes. A lot of cars.
Mary:
Did you have enough? Did you have enough petrol for your car?
Nataliia:
Yes, we, it was possible to get fuel. It was given by small portions, like 15 liters, 10 liters, but it was possible to get it. Wow. And the price is still very normal. There were very long queues to the petrol stations, but anyway, we were lucky to just, we were, we were prepared. We had the full tank because as, as I was preparing this, so this recommendations I knew, and we had the car was the full tank of patrol. So for the first day of travel, you are prepared. But it was like, we came to my mom’s house and we spent the night and it wasn’t. And that was the second sleepless night. Because first night we were just sleeping couple of hours. And this night, again, it wasn’t possible to sleep because of the shock. And I didn’t, I don’t know the English word for this, but we are traveling. It’s fun. You can, you can stop.
Mary:
Yeah. If you were not, not the earth, but you were trending
Nataliia:
Me. Yes. Me, my husband, there were like attacks. Now there’s panic attacks. I don’t know how to call it that time. Andthe, you go to sleep and in an hour you get up trembling. And again, you’re trying to get asleep way. And in the morning when we learn that, okay, you plan to go to our hub because we organized everything. And it was possible to go there because every school was prepared. Lisa was waiting for any team members with families. We knew about everything. We had the list of people, telegram channel. We were chatting. We were trying to support the child, but I understood that that, well, they leave is also has a air alarm the same morning and the vineyard. So another city was bombed. So we were not, didn’t know what to do. And our, friends, from Poland proposed us to, to go to their house and to accommodate us in Poland.
Nataliia:
So you are hesitating for, for some time, but as my daughter was having this, I don’t know, a nervous tick. She was like doing like this because of, she was so frightened that’s and she cannot stop doing this. And it was very hard to see her like, and, and, and we decided that maybe we should go there, but it was a very difficult decision because I have three kids. My oldest kid is 19 and he’s not too to go out of Ukraine. So my husband wasn’t planning to go anywhere. My elder son was also stays in, in community right now. And my mom also, she decided to stay with them. And she said that she’s too old to change anything in her life. She wants to, to be there. And so it was like to split the family, to, to leave the parts of my heart there and to decide that maybe I need to go abroad because of the younger kids.
Nataliia:
And we decided to go to the border, the aunt of the day, we finally came to the border, but there were huge queues of cars. And there wasn’t a that day, there was only one place where it was possible to go on food because my husband planned to take the car back. And I was with my kids to go on food. We knew that there are a lot of cars. So we thought that maybe on food, it will be much easier. And the same day, it wasn’t yet a lot of traffic, a lot of trains or buses going to the borders. So anything there was nothing organized yet. Yeah. And when we came there and we, we understood on the GPS, it was shown that there are still a lot of kilometers to the border, but there is a queue. And some people from the local villages, they said that, oh my God, what’s happening. You want to cross the border even tomorrow because of the, the queue and everything. And we understood that we don’t have enough fuel, but at the same time, you can’t leave the turn, your turn because otherwise other Cabo immediately step on your place. And if you leave you to get to the, to the front of the queue, and some people were going along, the skew was their personal belongings just to, to the border. But it was more than 10 kilometers to the, the, it was night. And it was very hold hold.
Nataliia:
And we didn’t know what to do. We stayed there for a couple of hours. We understood that we made only 10 meters, maybe, or 15 meters during this time. Wow. And a friend from Poland, he told that the, there was a decision from Polish and Ukrainian government to open some more places where it’s possible to go and food and three decided to go there. It was not far from there, but I was so nervous, but I remember that the name of displace. So I don’t know where I crossed the border. There was also very, very long queue and who were moving in full darkness. It was, it wasn’t in the village. It was in the field. And we understood that we are to stay there for the nights. There were some people working along the cars and saying, please switch of the engines, please switch of the lights, because they were afraid that they are, they’re a good goal for aim for, for the planes.
Nataliia:
We’ve heard helicopters. We explain our kids that they have to be like, if something happens, they are to get out of the car and to find the hole and to, to hide there. And he trains him. You’ve had to train them because you know, the cars on the road is something that is a good goal. And we understood that this nights will be also without sleep because my husband couldn’t sleep. And I was trying to sleep at least a bit. And it was almost impossible because we were changing all the time. We were trying to switch on the engine and switch off, switch, arms, switch off. And you are making like very, very small steps toward the border. And it’s six o’clock. We got up and we understood that maybe the, we are to go on foot. And
Mary:
In the meantime, how were your, how were your younger children handling this
Nataliia:
Dudley? It was very hard to stay for, for two days in the car. And they were like, we had no normal food. The water was almost the bottle was water was almost empty. Like something like this for, for, for people. It’s nothing. And, and do you understand that maybe not all the belongings you’re taking you need, so to eat, just decided to take some what we can with us and my husband, finally, my husband managed to, to stop the bus that was going to the border. And they agreed to take me and my daughter and, and our belongings there to the border. And my husband and my son decided to go and food. Sowe were in this bus, it was crowded. A lot of people, a lot of women was kids of all ages and very small kids. Some of them had a fever. They were just the diverse Sikh. It was very hot. And my daughter was like, it was all this stops. The bus was moving very slowly and she was laying on the floor. She couldn’t breathe. It was very hard for her. I don’t know. Maybe it’s because of the, she was nervous or because she was just sick because of this like
Mary:
Movement,
Nataliia:
The movement. Yes. I don’t know. But she was laying on the floor all the way to the water. And there, we understood that we were very, very far from, from the body, actually left the cover very far from the border, 12 kilometers, 17 kilometers. I don’t know, but, but very, very far. So when we, when we got to the border, there were already a lot of people, they were just not let to cross because the bodyguards say that we need to, they need to collect some, a group of people and then they will let us go. And it was early morning. We were standing. It was a cold, very cold, the temperature below zero.
Nataliia:
And you waited for a couple of hours. My, my daughter wanted to drink to eat. We had almost nothing to eat. We had some, the water was finished. And so I came to the bodyguards and I asked them if they have any water. And actually they were very kind. They shared their own bottle was a bit of water. So they shared it was awesome. And I was able to get to give it to my daughter, but I thought that it will be easy to, to cross the border. And we were waiting just for, for my husband to, to bring the, the son to me. But in fact, we stayed there for five more hours, not just waiting for the Bamba because we were not let to cross the border. And the first, there was one group of people who crossed. Then there was another group of people who crossed because the, the board, what the guards decided to let only people who has the kids of one year and till three years, you know, and my, my kids are older.
Nataliia:
So, and we were waiting for so long time and people were coming and coming and coming. And I understood that that will be out in front rows, but people from other sides are coming and standing in front of us. So there is no chance we will cross very quickly. And people got nervous. We were, everyone was crying that it’s a unhuman because there is no toilets. There is no water. There is, we are standing for so long time. They’re in this crowd. And I started to cry. And when I told my daughter that if there is a chance, you have to run because they won’t stop. You you’re small. They won’t stop you. And maybe this way you will start to cry, mom. And then we will, we’ll join you because you have already crossed maybe this way, we will be able to cross this. And in fact, then a lot of people started, you know, like started to break the chain of what gods and the gods. And we ran, we just ran to the border. Wow,
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
But it was like this point on the border. It wasn’t for a crossing on food. And that’s why it was very long from this firstpost to the border itself. So it was like a one kilometer and a half or something. So I, I wasn’t able to resolve theselongings. I wasn’t able to run the lot. And I said to kids that you have to run and I will, I will follow. I will definitely have a four. We will cross because we are all already on the territory of the border. And it means that we will cross
Mary:
At this point, you have your daughter with you and your middle son.
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
How old are both of them?
Nataliia:
Dante. Stan and son is 16.
Mary:
And so where was your husband at this point?
Nataliia:
He wasn’t planning to cross the border and to go with us, but it wasn’t possible anyway, but he wanted to, to help somehow to, to the, to the country. And he wasn’t planning to escape. So he just let us, she brought us to the border and returned to our, to my mom’s city. And now he’s there. He’s helping us because he’s almost 40, 50, he’s almost 50. Andjust, he has no previous military experience. He tried to get to the territory defense, but they said that at the moment they need people who has military experience. So he was volunteering case giving blood,
Mary:
Oh my goodness.
Nataliia:
Today, his care, he wasn’t just giving blood that, that is what, what he can do.
Mary:
Wow. So right now, are you in Poland?
Nataliia:
Yes, I am in Poland. In small village. In central Poland.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
And how did you find the place where you are connections?
Nataliia:
Oh, it’s a hard question for me because I used to be like, I’m a resource for others and the person who is responsible for many things. And I used to be responsible not only for my life, but for, for other people around me, the moment I find myself in a completely different situation where I’m just, this is everybody’s helping, you know, everybody is helping and actually they helped me in everything and I just, I have to accept
Nataliia:
Help. And that is very uncommon for me. I’m living in a small, In a small village. There is no public transport at all. My kids have at the moment they go to school.
Mary:
Wow.
Nataliia:
Yes. We decided that it would be better than to stay at home and to watch this videos because they can’t get to forget what happened in Ukraine. They have nightmares, they have problems with their nervous system. And so we decided that maybe it would be better for them to go to school. And my friends here, they helped me very much. They just like angels for us, but I didn’t manage to get an apartment. I signed an agreement already, and I saw that on Monday, this Monday, we’ll be able to move to the apartment, close to a small studio, not nothing fancy, very small studio, close to the school, but I didn’t manage to do this because suddenly the day when I was to move, the owner told me that the apartment is not vacant. It’s not ready for us though. I paid two months of deposit and still, I’m just, I have to be with my friends. So to stay in their house at the moment, because there is no other choice for us.
Mary:
Will you get your money back?
Nataliia:
Not yet. I’m waiting. Maybe he will have a, another apartment in the meat of April. So still I didn’t get anything. So I’m, I’m still waiting because it’s, it’s a big problem in Poland now to find a place for, to leave. And the prices are huge. And in this area where I am now, just there are no any apartments for lease. There is nothing just empty and the market is empty. Absolutely. There are also many, many Ukrainian families. And in, in the school we have are the Ukrainian kids as well.
Mary:
Natalia, have you been able to sleep?
Nataliia:
I’m taking medicines And taking medicines. I had something from Ukraine and I continue to take them because otherwise it’s not possible for me to sleep. And you know, in, in Poland, they are, they feel that the war is very close, so close for them as well. And all of them, they watch the TV and the Ukrainians and the voice all the time on TV. It’s all the time in the conversations of people. It’s, It’s everywhere.
Mary:
Yeah. There’s no refuge from it. How are your children?
Nataliia:
I wanted to say fine, but they are fine as for the situation, maybe.
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
They need to find their way New class, you know, they need to,
Mary:
And a new language, new language,
Nataliia:
New language, new, new school, new people to understand that they lost well. They, they, they was their friends because their friends are scattered. They are in different cities. They are somewhere. It’s not like you can call someone and help them for a walk, you know, and to meet, to celebrate those different example, to have pizza somewhere. And nothing of that kind, it’s a different reality. They understand that They have to adopt somehow, but they feel suspended as well as theVPO. You know, at the moment, I’m trying to make inventory of what, what still is stable in my life. And actual a job is the only thing that is stable. I don’t have full family now because they, they are split, but family is something very important for me. And it was always very important for me. Life is, it won’t be the same anyway. Yeah.
Nataliia:
Yeah. Changing. I feel that we have changed a lot. I’m happy that Ukraine is it’s consolidated. It’s like a nation and everybody sees it. And everybody understands that. It’s not like it was described before. You know, and I sold this processes before and, and I’m happy to see this, but at the same time, I understand that if we turn back, it will be different Kiev. If it will be different places and the places they want recognize, and today you I’m just prepared that something might happen to what you, you have left because of in QI, for example, we still have my husband’s family, his mother and father and brother. And when something is born to you immediately, you just try to understand if it’s somehow, is it about your family or about your friends or how it’s If anyone affected. And if you know that the house of my relative, it was bombed, it was destroyed. And, but in the morning we called them, they asked if they maybe they will need a place to leave. Sothey, they can use our apartment in key, have to, to, to live there. But we were lucky to, and you are happy to know that she managed to, to live give before.
Mary:
Oh, good.
Nataliia:
Yes. And that is like, you know that, And it’s very, very hard each time. It’s very hard to see your friends to see your teammates was this, you know, backgrounds, no someone is sitting in the machine nice background and it’s looked like very professional and so on and so on. But you know that there is a air attack and the person is actually not working from the basement or working from the, I don’t know, bathroom because it’s safe to stay there. And everybody’s is doing Incredible efforts to continue working, to continue being helpful, to continue being useful and to work and, And it’s, and to support the children. We have the team that is supporting each other very, very much, very much indeed.
Mary:
How easy is it for you to communicate with your son and husband?
Nataliia:
It’s very hard because sometimes it’s easy. Sometimes it’s difficult because the live it’s our mood, our state is a rollercoaster each day and several times per day. And you don’t know in which modes you will find your GRS, right? We’ll be they after not sleepless night or will they be after I’m good. After they read something good from the news, you never know. And when you talk to them, it’s like, it’s, it’s good to understand that every senior is okay. But sometimes we, we prefer to write, we want to see each other, but sometimes it’s okay to write just to text messages and to see if it’s a good time to talk.
Mary:
Yeah. What is your son doing?
Nataliia:
He is a student about Toronto studies at the university. At the moment he was studying at the key of national university. But the same time he was working as, as a QA and he continues to work as a Cray. Now,
Mary:
What, what is that?
Nataliia:
It’s a quality assurance, assurance engineer. He’s working for it company, not, not for our company. It’s a different company.
Mary:
So he is not volunteering in the military at this point.
Nataliia:
No, he’s not.
Nataliia:
He he’s making, you know, he’s, that is volunteering. If you call it volunteering is to, to the find this a telegram channels where the wrong information is shared, for example, and try to stop them. They’re sending the messages in social media, you know, or try to ban someone from posting propaganda. That is, that is the kind of things he is doing. And also he’s helping his friends who are in key of whiskey in cave. And in other parts of Ukraine, his <inaudible> is a safe place. So he’s buying things and helping them was his sense, like what, what is needed them.
Mary:
So he’s a little bit like you he’s, he’s doing the kind of administrative helpful things that you have done for doxy.me. It sounds like
Nataliia:
Not exactly, but he’s, that is, he’s more in it. You know, he’s more like, this is the way how he finds himself more useful, you know?
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
Yeah. My, my mom was making this rugs. I don’t know how to call it. It’s to cover the equipment, you know, not to be seen from the air. That is the, the make small pieces, small li like laces. And they put them on the, on the net and, and then the send it to, to the army. So she was going there and helping and was preparing food for refugees. They just saw that. But everybody, everybody is helping now. And, and that, that is normal. That is not something, you know, just it’s, it’s not something fantastic. And credible it’s, everybody is doing this now. Absolutely. Everybody.
Mary:
Yeah. So Natalia, you were in charge of preparing doxy.me for a war, right?
Nataliia:
I was in charge of making this plan and meeting him a contingency plan. And I was in charge of for budgeting and preparing yes. The, the overall proposal. Yes. How we will handle this.
Mary:
So there really is a grand difference between preparing and then experiencing it, right?
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
In retrospect, what do you think you understood that it would be like, and what did you not understand?
Nataliia:
This thought that’s, maybe there’ll be problems with mobile communication and it didn’t happen. It happened in some areas, but there was a step from mobile operators where they decided to United the networks. So if one station is of one operator is destroyed, then, then also the other one from the different operators working. So that is, it is called internal roaming. So the, you can change the operator. What else we were well-prepared was leave, hop. We were well prepared was the number of people who will go there was Maybe it was live help. We did everything correctly. What was, what else? Maybe you were to urge people, more people to leave Ukraine before the war started, but it wasn’t like till the very end, there were chances, very high chances that the war wouldn’t wouldn’t start because the same number of military troops, we have seen the last April
Nataliia:
And the war didn’t start a ban and a Ukraine leaves in a such situation during eight, eight years already, you know, all, all the time, they have this threat from Russia and maybe this on loses that’s might be done beforehand. But again, it’s, it’s not easy because people do not want, didn’t want to leave their families. They didn’t want to, to leave the family and to go by themselves. Right. And that was something more complicated to, to, because you know, if your kid goes to school and you don’t feel like the world will start tomorrow, it’s very difficult to collect your belongings and to move somewhere for, for a long period of time. Right. To understand that it, it might be for a year or for,
Mary:
Especially if you’ve had a threat for eight years. Why would you do it? Yeah.
Nataliia:
All right.
Mary:
So what strikes me is that, that your company did everything to physically prepare, but really there’s no way to emotionally prepare for this is there
Nataliia:
It’s not possible. And
Mary:
We never experienced it.
Nataliia:
He had a kind of similar experience when the first, the first attack happened on the creamy and the Donetsk and Lugansk, but then it was different because, you know, feeling like the bumps are exploding, close to you, it’s a bit different.
Mary:
Yes.
Nataliia:
And a feeling that you have to escape and you have to, and you have, everything is changing completely. That’s you think about very, very basic needs to cover. You think about just very, to find food, very, to find water, what to do, how to get an hour of sleep, you know, it’s absolutely different. It’s like you understand that your belongings do not worse off anything. If there is no water, food, or medicines or something like that, and there is no fuel, you can’t go further. And there is nowhere to, to, to feel in the tank. And it’s very, very simple things. Very, very simple. And you can imagine living in Europe, you can imagine that there might be a problem was drinking water.
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
It’s something very easy to get. It’s something that is available everywhere.
Mary:
But now in Poland, do you have access to food and water?
Nataliia:
Well, more than necessary. We are just, yeah, of course. We just understood that our basic needs are very small, in fact. And so we don’t need a lot of things at the moment, all basic needs are covered. What we need is just to plan, you know, what we need is just to get at least to be able, at least to plan for any period of time to have this timeframe somehow stated, you know? Yeah.
Mary:
And your husband and son, do they have plenty of food and water where they are?
Nataliia:
Yes, yes. At the moment. Yes. It’s, it’s, it’s safe there and they have everything.
Mary:
So Natalia, during the day, are you actually able to work?
Nataliia:
Yes, I, that, that is, I don’t know. Maybe it happens also to some other people, but that is my way of escaping. Maybe I’m I started to work 100% from the, maybe we came to Poland on Saturday and from Monday I started to work full time, 100% of time. And it’s, it’s how I escape from the situation. And it’s how I can be useful is the better way for me. No.
Mary:
Well, I think it’s a very healthy escape because it helps you feel part of a team you’re contributing and it probably calms your nervous system to be able to be productive.
Nataliia:
I think. So.
Mary:
Is your husband able to work?
Nataliia:
No.
Mary:
No. So that’s probably harder for him.
Nataliia:
Yes. It’s hard. And he’s looking for something right now because volunteering is good, but it’s also, he needs to do something.
Mary:
Yeah. And you’re sleeping a little better because of, well, you have a more stable environment and medicine is always helpful for sleeping. I’m glad you have that.
Nataliia:
Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes.
Mary:
Before we close, is there anything else you would like to share
Nataliia:
My beam that’s I, I appreciate what doxy.me is doing for the team right now, because we, we shared this decision was the team that doxy.me is supporting them and we’ll support any of, for the team members during this war, including those who decided to join army. And that is at the moment for many of us, it’s the only stability we have in our lives. And I, I couldn’t find words to tell you how much I appreciated the, the Brendan came to visit us and to, to we’ve hop that’s other people doing the, the money that are collected and sent for, for charity to, to help you crane in this world. So that is something I, I have sat over. Just thank you. But maybe I want to use this into you as well to do say thank you once again.
Mary:
Yeah. There’s so many things. I think we just only in these extreme circumstances, do we understand the power of that kind of love and concern because you need it, you need it, Natalia. Thank you. I, I don’t know if talking about your experience is helpful or if it actually kind of makes it reoccur the trauma, but I hope in some measure, it was helpful to share your story.
Nataliia:
Yes. I think so Good. The, the movie, you know, maybe people will learn about it and maybe they will see that it’s how it happens and that it’s not possible to prepare. Even if we are 100% prepared, we have no, we cannot prepare 100%
Mary:
Well. And because we don’t know what we would be preparing for. Right. You didn’t know what would happen,
Nataliia:
But you know, mostly we are pretty close to what, how we see the, how it might happen and how, what, what, what we will see, you know, if the worst ads. Yeah. We were not the, that was the worst option. That’s this kind of events might happen, but it happened, unfortunately.
Mary:
Yeah. Well, Biden will be coming to Poland today.
Nataliia:
Yes, I know.
Mary:
So that I don’t is he going to Warsaw? Do you know?
Nataliia:
No, I don’t know
Mary:
That that might be kept a secret anyway, Natalia, I can’t thank you enough for speaking with me and, and my heart and prayers will be with your family.
Nataliia:
Thank you. Thank you very
Mary:
Much. I hope you sleep well tonight.
Nataliia:
I will do my best
Mary:
Right.
Nataliia:
Take care.
Mary:
Yes. Amen. Bye-bye.
I was in charge of making this plan and meeting him a contingency plan. And I was in charge of for budgeting and preparing yes. The, the overall proposal. Yes. How we will handle this.
Mary:
So there really is a grand difference between preparing and then experiencing it, right?
Nataliia:
Yes.
Mary:
In retrospect, what do you think you understood that it would be like, and what did you not understand?
Nataliia:
This thought that’s, maybe there’ll be problems with mobile communication and it didn’t happen. It happened in some areas, but there was a step from mobile operators where they decided to United the networks. So if one station is of one operator is destroyed, then, then also the other one from the different operators working. So that is, it is called internal roaming. So the, you can change the operator. What else we were well-prepared was leave, hop. We were well prepared was the number of people who will go there was Maybe it was live help. We did everything correctly. What was, what else? Maybe you were to urge people, more people to leave Ukraine before the war started, but it wasn’t like till the very end, there were chances, very high chances that the war wouldn’t wouldn’t start because the same number of military troops, we have seen the last April
Nataliia:
And the war didn’t start a ban and a Ukraine leaves in a such situation during eight, eight years already, you know, all, all the time, they have this threat from Russia and maybe this on loses that’s might be done beforehand. But again, it’s, it’s not easy because people do not want, didn’t want to leave their families. They didn’t want to, to leave the family and to go by themselves. Right. And that was something more complicated to, to, because you know, if your kid goes to school and you don’t feel like the world will start tomorrow, it’s very difficult to collect your belongings and to move somewhere for, for a long period of time. Right. To understand that it, it might be for a year or for,
Mary:
Especially if you’ve had a threat for eight years. Why would you do it? Yeah.
Nataliia:
All right.
Mary:
So what strikes me is that, that your company did everything to physically prepare, but really there’s no way to emotionally prepare for this is there
Nataliia:
It’s not possible. And
Mary:
We never experienced it.
Nataliia:
He had a kind of similar experience when the first, the first attack happened on the creamy and the Donetsk and Lugansk, but then it was different because, you know, feeling like the bumps are exploding, close to you, it’s a bit different.
Mary:
Yes.
Nataliia:
And a feeling that you have to escape and you have to, and you have, everything is changing completely. That’s you think about very, very basic needs to cover. You think about just very, to find food, very, to find water, what to do, how to get an hour of sleep, you know, it’s absolutely different. It’s like you understand that your belongings do not worse off anything. If there is no water, food, or medicines or something like that, and there is no fuel, you can’t go further. And there is nowhere to, to, to feel in the tank. And it’s very, very simple things. Very, very simple. And you can imagine living in Europe, you can imagine that there might be a problem was drinking water.
Mary:
Yeah.
Nataliia:
It’s something very easy to get. It’s something that is available everywhere.
Mary:
But now in Poland, do you have access to food and water?
Nataliia:
Well, more than necessary. We are just, yeah, of course. We just understood that our basic needs are very small, in fact. And so we don’t need a lot of things at the moment, all basic needs are covered. What we need is just to plan, you know, what we need is just to get at least to be able, at least to plan for any period of time to have this timeframe somehow stated, you know? Yeah.
Mary:
And your husband and son, do they have plenty of food and water where they are?
Nataliia:
Yes, yes. At the moment. Yes. It’s, it’s, it’s safe there and they have everything.
Mary:
So Natalia, during the day, are you actually able to work?
Nataliia:
Yes, I, that, that is, I don’t know. Maybe it happens also to some other people, but that is my way of escaping. Maybe I’m I started to work 100% from the, maybe we came to Poland on Saturday and from Monday I started to work full time, 100% of time. And it’s, it’s how I escape from the situation. And it’s how I can be useful is the better way for me. No.
Mary:
Well, I think it’s a very healthy escape because it helps you feel part of a team you’re contributing and it probably calms your nervous system to be able to be productive.
Nataliia:
I think. So.
Mary:
Is your husband able to work?
Nataliia:
No.
Mary:
No. So that’s probably harder for him.
Nataliia:
Yes. It’s hard. And he’s looking for something right now because volunteering is good, but it’s also, he needs to do something.
Mary:
Yeah. And you’re sleeping a little better because of, well, you have a more stable environment and medicine is always helpful for sleeping. I’m glad you have that.
Nataliia:
Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes.
Mary:
Before we close, is there anything else you would like to share
Nataliia:
My beam that’s I, I appreciate what doxy.me is doing for the team right now, because we, we shared this decision was the team that doxy.me is supporting them and we’ll support any of, for the team members during this war, including those who decided to join army. And that is at the moment for many of us, it’s the only stability we have in our lives. And I, I couldn’t find words to tell you how much I appreciated the, the Brendan came to visit us and to, to we’ve hop that’s other people doing the, the money that are collected and sent for, for charity to, to help you crane in this world. So that is something I, I have sat over. Just thank you. But maybe I want to use this into you as well to do say thank you once again.
Mary:
Yeah. There’s so many things. I think we just only in these extreme circumstances, do we understand the power of that kind of love and concern because you need it, you need it, Natalia. Thank you. I, I don’t know if talking about your experience is helpful or if it actually kind of makes it reoccur the trauma, but I hope in some measure, it was helpful to share your story.
Nataliia:
Yes. I think so Good. The, the movie, you know, maybe people will learn about it and maybe they will see that it’s how it happens and that it’s not possible to prepare. Even if we are 100% prepared, we have no, we cannot prepare 100%
Mary:
Well. And because we don’t know what we would be preparing for. Right. You didn’t know what would happen,
Nataliia:
But you know, mostly we are pretty close to what, how we see the, how it might happen and how, what, what, what we will see, you know, if the worst ads. Yeah. We were not the, that was the worst option. That’s this kind of events might happen, but it happened, unfortunately.
Mary:
Yeah. Well, Biden will be coming to Poland today.
Nataliia:
Yes, I know.
Mary:
So that I don’t is he going to Warsaw? Do you know?
Nataliia:
No, I don’t know
Mary:
That that might be kept a secret anyway, Natalia, I can’t thank you enough for speaking with me and, and my heart and prayers will be with your family.
Nataliia:
Thank you. Thank you very
Mary:
Much. I hope you sleep well tonight.
Nataliia:
I will do my best
Mary:
Right.
Nataliia:
Take care.
Mary:
Yes. Amen. Bye-bye.
